is rogue in vogue? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, republicans gone rogue. if this deficit crisis were a game of chicken, by now the republicans would have tossed the steering wheel out the window, dumped a cinder block on the accelerator and beyahooing like slim pickens riding the bomb at the end of "dr. strangelove." how do you negotiate with people who are happy to cut the baby in two, happy to see the economy destroyed as long as they get to hot dog over the rubble? that's where we are, because they think their leader's plan, the we win/you lose offer, is too liberal. that's our top story tonight. also, who's to blame? last night we showed you this

graphic on how revenues, the black line, have not kept up with spending. what happened to the money? three words, bush tax cuts. the tax cuts that many republicans insisted would magically bring in new revenue, did the opposite. but none of this is helping president obama. his numbers are slipping states. we will look at numbers and what they mean. why it may not be hot news, michele bachmann may have set a new standard by borrowing from fannie mae, the program she wanted to destory. and why so many people look down on politicians. by the way, this summer the politicians are making it very easy to do that. we started with the latest, my favorite expert howard fineman editorial director for the huffington post media group and msnbc political analyst. tonight is a great time to do an espn get together with two political guys. you and me. we had jay carney on the other

night, saying you've been through this a lot, chris. no, i haven't. i haven't seen anything like this, where the government of the united states is tottering on the edge of some kind of default, and these crazy people, most of them on the republican side, most of them not seeming to give a darn. i'm talking about the back benchers. howard, what do you see in that market dropping? it's dropped about 100 for two days, 200 today. are we getting close to niagara falls? >> i'm in new york today, chris. while i was here, i was talking to some business leaders. one was james tissue, head of lowe's corporation, very smart guy, a republican, and, you know, he professed to be calm, but on the other hand, he said i think everybody underestimated the tea party. that means even the establishment republicans like jim tish, and the chamber of commerce types and others who helped elect all these people, you know, maybe they were kidding themselves, the

establishment republicans, they thought they could tame this crowd or this crowd would be practical what jim told me is, i would think he said that people who were idealists would also at some point be practical but, of course, everybody is holding their breath. i talked to one of john boehner's staff people and said, what's going to happen? he said we'll get the score we want and we're going to pass the thing, but if you talk to the white house people, as i was also doing, they predict the boehner bill will never get out of the house. >> i think you should tell your republican friend to go see "last of the mohicans." i'm not sure these tea party people are that concerned about the establishment's concerns. >> no, i don't think they are, and in a way, if you want to

look at it this way, the business establishment played a dangerous game in all this, chris. they bankrolled the tea party, they got behind the candidates once they won the primaries last year and the congressional races, they crossed their fingers, held their breath, backed them to the hilt in order to win back the house, but as in politics as in life, be careful what you wish for, now those people, as they look at the stock market and look at what's happening around the world to see whether these, quote, idealists will be practical. >> we have until next tuesday. next tuesday we start losing borrowing authority, anything can happen in terms of the world markets. it seems that the president has given away much of the revenues, even though we'll get to that in a couple minutes that a lot of trouble we're in, the bush tax cuts. number one, no tax increases,

isn't that what is has come down to? so boehner doesn't have another fight next year. i'm not sure the president having negotiated himself will even be able to get that. i don't think he's going to be able to escape the situation without creating the scenario where there will have to be another vote next year. you know, maybe the boehner bill won't get out of the house, which is what the white house people are saying. maybe harry reid's bill in the senate won't pass, but if a shrunken version of the boehner big does -- or if they go to an emergency extension, the president will be right back in the same predicament he's in right now. i think a lot of people are upset. they blame the republicans more than the democrats for the

gamesmanship, but the fact is the republicans have also backed the president into a corner, even if they're doing it in a way that's not popular. >> i want you to analyze these two possibilities, one the president could give away more of the store, more spending cuts, maybe enough to get us thus this increase. which would make the redhots happy. no tax increase at all. the other possibility is to marry what boehner wants right now with what mcconned was talking about next year, where next year it can be are can be raised by the president, only the house would have to come back with a two thirds veto, so it seems there is a possibility for compromise, but the easiest thing is for the president to throw the whole bomb game, say, you win this year, not next year. >> i don't think he can do >> i don't think he can do that, chris. when you get to a number that

big, to an increase in the debt ceiling that that's large, you're inevitably going to have to cut pretty deeply into medicaid, medicare, and entitlement programs in a way that the president has born not to do. he's already got enough problems with his own base. that's the reason why he won't go farther. that's the reason he was trying to add revenue in the big grand discussions with boehner, et cetera, et cetera. i don't think that's an option to go in one tranche. >> what about my second idea, basically go this year, the way that boehner wants it, and next year basically allow the president to raise the debt ceiling, with the congress having the ability to pass a measure against that, but then have to get two thirds to override his veto. wouldn't that be a good compromise? >> that's a compromise, except then you lose the tea party people. mitch mcconnell is an old-fashioned politician, where he said let's make it the president's responsibility to raise the debt ceiling.

that's too clever by half by the tea party people. they want to say that they cast a vote to get control of spending, and they won't regard that compromise you're talking about as the way to do it. what boehner is saying behind the scenes, as i understand it, to his members is, look, if you don't do this, we're going to get blamed. the media's going to be against you, the national consensus is going to be against you, don't forget 1996, you know, the way newt gingrich was blamed, we're going to get blamed, so just suck it up and do it. and eric cantor, his number two, is now saying the same thing. the problem is, the way i see it, eric cantor is just looking for a way to avoid blame himself, because eric canner has been spending weeks action if no

been spending, weeks if no months, trying to undercut boehner every step of the way. now he's telling everyone win one for the gipper when he's been undercutting the gipper all the way along. >> what about the crisis situation we face? what happens when cut, cap and balance become stall crash and burn? that could happen by next tuesday afternoon what do the people like kelly from erie, the once who were, who really only care about the next tea party meeting that they have to go to. what happens when the government faces greek-like hell, and it would be all over their hometown newspapers that they were part of lighting the match? >> what's so amazing about this, it's a self-created, self-inflicted crisis that really masks a much deeper problem, includes that we aren't dealing with taxes and we aren't dealing with entitlements. that's the real debate. if they pass a short-term extension, then it's up to the establishment republicans that i was mentioning at the beginning,

the chamber people, the manufacturers, all those lobbies to say to those tea party people, hey, we put you in, and we can get you out. then you have something approaching warfare within the republican party, but again they're reaping the whirlwind here. they're the ones who set up the situation to begin with. >> we're facing big deficits. that's the international prop. and it's got to be met from both ends. if deficits are the problem. if it's just an ideological fight over the size of government, that's a totally different question than we're facing now. >> i think it's both. i don't think most serious observers would deny we have a debt problem. we do. when the debt is approaching 100% of our gross domestic product, that's a when you look at the deficits projected over the next several years. everybody agrees we have a problem. it's a question of how we deal with it, and how we deal with it free of the ideological blinders that people on both sides, but i

would say especially the republicans have put on. >> howard fineman, well said. i knew you would be good at this. >> thank you. regardless of what most republicans say, revenue hasn't kept up with spending, we're way down in revenue, way up in spending. figure it out and figure out what bush's tax cuts did to caught this. we'll have the numbers when we come back. >> ( rooster crows ) >> by 2020, 50 billion network devices will roam the earth. that's seven devices per person. this will change how we work in ways we've never before imagined. what do you need to secure your people, their devices, and your business? a network that can evolve

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from in trade say he's the favorite now to win the republican nomination for president next year. a 34% chance for running the nomination, a bit better than 1:3. leapfrogging mitt romney already. so he's the front-runner on the betting odds. bachmann is a distant third. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." whether the boehner bill passes tomorrow or fails in the house, the action next moves to the senate. what's the frame of mind among u.s. senators? joining me is democratic senator jean shahin of new hampshire. i watched your career, watched you work in politics and now in government. you worked at harvard for a while. you know the business of politics. i wonder, what is it like to stand there as a senator from new hampshire waiting for the president and boehner and the crazy tea party people to cook

up a deal, and then you've got to decide on what to do with it. what is the mood now among the grownup senators? >> i think people are very frustrated. it is time now for us to act. we have the whole world watching. we have an economy in this country that will have devastating consequences if we fail to raise the debt ceiling. middle-class families across this country who will be affected with their credit cards, car payments and mortgage payments. this is a manufactured crisis, it doesn't need to be there. it's time for people to put aside their partisan differences and come to the table and get this done. >> what i don't understand -- well, i do understand, but i don't want to, this coming together of ideology and crisis management. we have a solvency problem in the federal government, spending more than bringing in. that's a practical problem with a practical solution.

to some level like you can agree on, 22% of gdp. you can see it out there, it has to come up from 20%. the republican view is we're down to about 14%, but we're not going to do anything about it. that's the position. >> look, we have a two-part problem. the first part is the debt ceiling. we've got to raise the debt ceiling because of the catastrophic consequences of not doing that. it would force a downgrade in the government's bond rating. we have never in our country's history refused to pay our debts, and we can't do it now. but the longer term problem is we have to deal with the country's debt and the deficits. i think there have been good people on both sides of the aisle willing to come together. the gang of six has been working on a proposal. i don't agree with everything that's in it, but i think it's a good framework to move forward.

harry reid has a plan he's talked about that would -- that i don't like, because it doesn't deal with revenues in the short term, but i think it would address the debt ceiling issues. it has cuts in it that republicans in the senate and the house have agreed to already in negotiations with the president, and so i think it's a proposal that could get down now. it's a long-term proposal. it wouldn't result in affecting the government's rating -- so i think we need to get this done. time is running out. >> i hear your practicality. thank you very much, jeanne shaheen of new hampshire. how much of this is as a result of the bush tax cuts? bruce bartlett is former dependly assistant treasury secretary under the first george bush and a policy adviser to ron reagan. let me ask you about this whole thing. bottom line, let's look at the numbers right now. we've got a chart coming up.

this shows the bush tax cuts were responsible for increasing the debts. now, we have about a $14 trillion debt right now, half came out since the turn of the century, and more than 40% of that has been from tax cuts. >> that's right. when bush took office, we had a debt of about $6 trillion. the projections from cbo were that we were going to run a $6 trillion surplus. by this point, if we had done nothing, we would have paid off the debt, but we added about $3 trillion of tax cuts, we lost about $3 trillion of revenue because of the slower economy and added about $6 trillion of spending, largely due to two unfunded wars and a medicare drug benefits and a lot of other things. so instead of getting -- paying off the debt, we ended up with about a $12 trillion debt. >> some of them clowns, not all

of them, running around saying barack obama is a socialist, he drove up the national debt to $14 trillion and dance around in a circle and congratulate each other. that's not true. >> no, i think the dirty secret is that obama is a moderate conservative. if i were a liberal democrat, i >> the point is a $14 trillion debt, and another portion is from the prescription drug bill. the whole rest of that is from a lousy economy under bush and these two wars he came up with. >> that's right. the republicans keep saying the tax cuts are the key to prosperity. the 2000s are evidence that that is not true. also reraise taxes in 1982. raise taxes against in 1983. we had booming economies in the 1980s and '90s. if we went back to those taxes, we would be better off. >> what is the argument against

the kind of tax policy -- let's just say it again. it seems like a heck of a great economy with the tax rate of about 39.6, as opposed to 35? >> right. >> that's the ones the rich bitch about, to use a crude term. that helped balance the budget. >> that's right. don't forget that ronald reagan raised the capital gains rate, and now it's only 15%, and of course the wealthier you are, the more of your income comes from capital gains. >> we showed the 400 richest people in the country. they pay about the same as a poor person pays, about 18%. >> that's right, of income taxes, that's right. >> whereas the middle class, who think they are the majority of the country, they're paying a higher rate. >> that's right. i don't think any question we would have positive economic effects if we went back to the tax rates.

>> how come i need to drag you on the show -- the fact is, just a simple math, we have a $14 trillion debt, half came from the bush era, almost, and the rest came from the prescription drug bill, and with a terrible economy and the two wars that he promulgated. that's simple math there. >> that's right, but in the republican playbook, of course, the deficit is never caused by tax cuts -- >> or wars. >> they go around saying they did not lose any revenue. a number of prominent officials, mitch mcconnell included, have said this. it's just mathematically ridiculous. >> and it's not socialism, but if a democrat says it, you can't go into the e.r. anymore for free, you have to kick in something, which to me is pretty conservative.

the health republicans call it socialism, they would rather you go to the e.r. and get treated free. that's what's going on now. >> the obama plan, the affordable health care act was essentially the same thing as the reps themselves -- >> richard nixon pushed an employer mandate. he wanted the individual not to pay any costs, all bosses had to pay the health care cost. that would have been the nixon rule. >> the heritage foundation, much more recently than that, proposed an individual mandate, now all of a sudden -- >> i feel like sanity has just walked into the door. bruce, so great, now that i realize you're smart and have the numbers, give me two seconds. any way to solve this kerfuffle? >> i think at this point, there's nothing that can pass the house of representatives. >> because it's too much of a zoo? >> yeah, i think a good chunk of the republican caucus is either

stupid, crazy, ignorant or craven cowards, who are desperately afraid of the tea party people, and rightly so. >> i love it. thank you. i can't add to that. bruce bartlett. you use tougher words than i use. i just say a zoo. the leadership has turned into a movie about, "the town" to help rally the rank and file for john boehner's debt plan. let's see what ben affleck thinks of his movie being used this way. that's next on "hardball." esurance instantly compares our car insurance rates

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religion with muslim leaders? the united states. think they'll be thrilled by the invite? take a look back how he expressed his intimate feelings toward muslims the past couple months. >> would you be comfortable appointing a muslim in your cabinet or a federal judge? >> no, i will not. >> i have not found a muslim that has said that they will denounce sharia law, you know, in order to support the constitution of the united states. >> so you're saying any community if they want to ban a mosque -- >> yes, they have the right to do that. >> wow, the guest list for next week's get-together is yet to be announced, but save the date. up next pat robertson of kansas came up with an innovative strategy, a hypothetical basketball game. while speaking on the senate floor yesterday, the senator imagined both what he would say to the president, as well as how the game would go. let's listen. >> perhaps he could actually

invite me down, maybe later, where everybody knows the president is a good basketball player. i would emphasize to the president bouncing the ball to him and say, your ball, mr. president. >> he would probably sink a three. >> i would probably by dribbling a lot. >> by that time he's scored, and i'm hustling to keep up. maybe i would nudge him a bit and he's asking some me to quit talking. >> not a lot of bounce passes these days, senator. lots of air, i guess, no baskets. speaking of new strategies, how you about a visual aid? in an effort to rev of his cohorts, kevin mccarthy played this clip from 2010 movie "the town" during a meeting yesterday. >> i need your help. i can't tell you what it is, you can never ask me about it later, and we're going to hurt some people. >> whose car are we going to take?

>> what was ben affleck's reaction to the republicans' use of that clip? >> i don't know it's a compliment or the ultimate repudiation. ben was a huge obama supporter back in on 2008. his numbers are dropping in key battleground states. that could mean trouble for him in 2012. wait until you catch these numbers, especially in michigan. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

hey there. here's what's happening. the congressional budget office is confirming a reworked version of the republican budget plan now cost the deficit by more than it raises the debt ceiling. ongoing debt ceiling debate weighing heavily on the stock market today along with the

report from the federal reserve with slowing economic growth in most parts of the country. overseas, the u.n. brought in the first of ten food shipments for children in drought stricken somalia. a mayor of kandahar who worked as an accountant in northern virginia before returning to help rebuild his town. tropical storm dawn formed in the gulf of mexico. if it stays on course it could reach the texas coast by friday. let's get you back it "hardball." here's a big story. president obama's approval numbers may be holding nationally, but a few battleground polls may cause

concern. michael feldman and jean feehery are here with me. i guess we can all argue, let's look at the numbers and see what they actually mean. obama won the state of michigan, by the way, the last time around. a 57 to 40, but according to the latest mra poll right now, he would lose a general matchup with romney, 42-46. john feehery, this is amazing. i think it does show that the residue of support for romney in the state in which he's best known, of course, his father was governor, his mother ran for some high office. what are your thoughts about this? >> well, chris, i think he's lost the reagan democrats that swung with him the last time. he's in big trouble with white ethnics, and that shows itself in michigan, ohio, a lot of the rustbelt states.

his message over the last several weeks has been we need to raise the debt limit and raise taxes in order to do it. they don't want to raise the debt limit, they don't want to raise taxes. i know raising taxes on the wealthy, i get that. as you said before on your show, when democrats are talking taxes, people immediately assume they're talking about their taxes. and this is hurting obama. he's off his message on jobs. >> okay. we were talking about michigan in particular, but john took it away. that's fine. i understand, michigan is part of the country, but let's look at these -- i want you to get into the whole question of -- let's look at iowa right now. romney is ahead in iowa by three points. i wonder about that one. that looks like it has all the action in the beginning. >> it's also a state where republican primary contestants are running around bashing the president uncontested over and over again in key media markets. it's not surprising to me that the president would take a hit there.

to take a step back in michigan. >> isn't it scary that the president of the united states, any president of the united states is within five points of mish bachmann? she's at 42 right now, obama is at 47. a lot of people think she may be too wild. your thoughts. >> we're 16 months out, there isn't a republican nominee yet. >> it doesn't shock you -- feary, aren't you surprised that she's doing that well again a president with proven executive ability, whether you like him or not? >> if you're part of the obama campaign, this must terrify you. you've done all you can. the media on the left wing, everyone has demonized michele bachmann and she's made it easy on them. >> no, no, whatever she is -- >> and she's still one five points. >> before you become the super-chivalrous person you are,

all her problems are self-made. >> i think she's been impressive. >> here we go. >> i'm looking forward to the caucuses. >> this is called sandbagging. please nominate her. please put her out front. >> i have been surprised by her as a candidate. >> this is the sandbag, ladies and gentlemen. >> i look forward to seeing mitt romney, tim pawlenty and michele bachmann. >> my school-yard, you would talk to somebody, meanwhile, their buddy would go behind them, and lean down, and then you would push them over. that's what you're doing to her. >> i do believe for the nonracial sole reasons the democrats have to win. obama is losing 50%. that's his disapproval number to 46%. that's a tough one, right, john? that one you guys win, you

probably win the ball game? >> i think that's right. ohio and florida are the two big ones. and i think, you know, other states like north carolina, virginia, and indiana, the obama campaign has already given up. i think if you're part of the obama campaign, you're thinking how do i win this thing? i hope michele bachmann gets nominated. >> are you saying a democrat can't win the presidency without ohio? do you want to take a trip down history lane? name a democrat who won the presidency, rather overwhelmingly in the electoral college, but who is irish? think about the irish-catholic presidents? >> somebody has studying that recently. >> let's talk about florida for a second. governor scott in florida is not doing the republican party -- >> he's a knucklehead. isn't he a knucklehead? >> i don't want to disparage him personally. >> no, but professionally.

>> professionally he's very unpopular. you look about changing the electorate, states like in many in that in reach, certainly for democrats -- >> let's go to a state we love, new hampshire. when my kids were young, i'm sure feehery, you'll get to do this, bring the kids along for the weekends. here he is, voters in new hampshire, his disapproval is at 49, his approval is at 46. that's not good, is it, john feehery? >> well, no, that's the state that's most like america, as far as i'm concerned. i always love it up there. >> it's more like america in your world than it is -- than i would be in the republican nomination process. i would say this is going to be a tough one for the president to win, and i think that republicans are going to do very well. his disapproval ratings are extraordinarily high, if he thinks he'll have an easy walk, which i don't think he'll have an easy one at all.

>> that tells me among normal voters, when you don't have to go to yahoo or looneyland, the president is doing okay. i think what the numbers tell me, it's going to be one brutal election if he gets elected, one if he loses for the republicans, i think we're looking at a rumble. >> he is extraordinarily popular among democrats. gallup came out last week, the highest approval -- >> why is he down in approval generally. >> everything is suppressed right now. this economic anxiety is driving numbers down. in pennsylvania he's beating romney among independents. >> let's go back to john's point. you started off with a good point. you were smart to put the knife in right away. white working class. if you haven't finished four years of college, it's a working class. a crude measure, but that's the way they do it. intuitively i think he's in trouble with those people. they don't see the president as their hero yet.

>> that's why this debt debate that's going on is so important. take a step back and look at that in the long view. right now you have the president desperately trying to save the economy, desperately trying to revive the economy for the working people and the republican party trying to budget the back budget on the backs of american people. >> mike, mike. >> i want to ask you a partisan question, feehery. why would you want to cut medicare for people who really need it and won't be able to buy insurance, let's be honest, and make sure that people who make $270 million a year only paying 18% in taxes. how do you justify that? >> i would like to make sure medicare doesn't take over the whole budget. and if you don't reform medicare and slow down the rate of growth from 7% or 8% to 2%, you're going to have a financial calamity. >> what about the rate of growth for the people who only pay 18% in taxes? >> i think they should pay more in taxes.

>> okay. good. you're not a real republican. >> i think if you asked most people -- >> would that pass the republican house. >> i think most would say the same thing. >> would that pass the republican house? >> no right now. i think you have to get rid of loopholes. if you have tax reform, you can get there. >> thank you, john feehery and michael feldman, a spirited discussion that reflected the views of the both right and left. coming up, michele bachmann called for the destruction of fannie mae. guess who was getting money from fannie mae? the max. i can't let allergies stop me from leading the way.

so, i get claritin clear. non-drowsy claritin relieves my worst symptoms. and only claritin is proven to keep you as alert and focused as someone without allergies. no other brand can say that not even allegra. live claritin clear. well, the republican presidential fight is a long way from being over, but mitt romney may be acting like he's got it wrapped up. at a fund-raiser, romney talked about the short list for vice president.

he named senator marco rubio, governor chris christie and virginia governor mark mcdonald. a source told politico that romney wasn't revealing his own contenters.{ yeah, right. we'll be right back. ññ÷÷ç

i want my candidacy for the presidency of the united states to stand for a moment when we, the people, stand once again for the independence from a government that's gotten too big

and spends too much and has taken away too much of our liberty. government thinks it knows better how to spend our money. government thinks they know better how to make a better life for us. they think they create jobs, they think they can make us healthier, but that's not the case. >> wow, remember those words. welcome back to "hardball" that was michele bachmann announcing her run, she neglected to mention that she had some firsthand experience with the federally subsidized fannie mae and freddy mac programs. just a few weeks before bachmann called for dismantling fannie mae and freddie mac, they signed for a $417,000 home loan to help finance their move to a golf course home. will her hypocrisy catch up? david jones is with mother

jones, and also joined by michelle goldberg. this is one of the clear-cut cases where you get points from the public for saying you want to be independent of government, and it turns out you're very much dependent on government, you're borrowing on federally backed money. >> on the one hand i'm not sure that most people will blame anyone for taking advantage of a government program they oppose, right? i think -- >> calling for its destruction? >> i think the point is, in her case, the problem i think is that it's cumulative. it's the time and time again she, while kind of lambasting government, her entire career, her entire financial well-being seems to be based in many ways on suckling from the government teat. it's not that just she has loans backed by fannie and freddie, it's that she's also getting subsidies for her farm, her

husband is getting medicare for her christian counseling service. she came from the i.r.s. she's had a career and an economic life that's really been based on government. she refuses to admit that helped her or that government can ever really help anybody. >> how does that cognitive dissonance of years ago on a general basis, let's get the government out of medicare. >> get your hands off by medicare, people would say. listen, michele bachmann seems to be a tea totaler that likes the sauce. >> temperance leader with a flask in her pocket. i don't think it will hurt her politically in the short-term. the right and the people she's speaking to are basing their approach on denying reality. they, you know, they believe if you cut government spending,

actually, the economy expands. they believe that there's nothing wrong with voting not to raise the debt ceiling, nothing's going to happen with the default. again and again and again they believe articles of faith rather than reality. if she's out there pitching, as we saw on the sound byte, the grand vision that they have, everything else, oh, this is just "the washington post" nitpicking her. this is the media attacking her. >> let's go to michelle on this. you seem to be fair minded on this. where would she be financially if she wasn't getting federal backing for a mortgage to get that golf course house. how would she be living differently if she wasn't depending on uncle sam? >> well, we know she makes a good salary from the house of representatives. >> from the government. >> yeah, from the government, and that, according to their tax returns, her husband's clinic doesn't turn a profit, but he does pay himself apparently a good salary since they are

moving into a lavish and expensive home on a golf course, and we know that his clinic is heavily subsidized also by the federal government, so, you know, so -- and furthermore, we know -- >> health care -- all they get is a salary, health care, all their income from the government, it seems to me they are government-wards almost. >> well, they also -- >> she has never had -- except for -- she has never had a non-governmental job. she was working for the irs. >> that's spooky, she runs against the government and irs and everything else. >> she was a lawyer for the irs, which means she prosecuted people who the irs targeted for not paying their taxes, which is probably a good thing to do, but a lot of the right wingers out there hate the irs and want to defund it. >> she was going both ways on the road to damascus. >> at the same time, she has a

great health care insurance with her job at the congress and a very generous federal pension. she supports the ryan plan, which wants to end the medicare guarantee, would she live by those same terms herself in terms of her own health care? i doubt she would. >> michelle, give me a sense of where she stands. i don't want to beat a dead horse, romney at 30, perry at 11, everyone's talking in the crazy world i live in, perry is going to come into this race and knock her out in a second, or she's the only woman in a field of men, she has that advantage, besides being a better politician in a field of men? >> one of the reasons perry looks so great right now is people are so frustrated in the rest of the field, so they are putting a lot of hopes on to him.

but he's pretty unpopular in his own state, so there's a lot of people, i think, in texas, who believes once he gets on the national stage, there's no reason to think he'll immediately pass michele bachmann. also, when some of these other candidates start dropping out, herman cain, newt gingrich, she's likely to pick up most of their votes rather than romney. >> i've been a long believer in michele bachmann's political abilities, i don't know anything about rick perry except another texan of that kind. thank you, david corn, thank you michelle goldburg. when we return, why so many americans look down on politicians lately. >> ( rooster crows ) >> by 2020, 50 billion network devices will roam the earth. that's seven devices per person. this will change how we work in ways we've never before imagined. what do you need to secure your people, their devices,

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let me finish tonight with why so many people look down on politicians. it's this, this skirmishing, this pie eating contest, this sack race, this absurd picnic atmosphere of one side against the other. waste of a summer afternoon with dank arguments in the basement. this isn't why i love politicians, this is the florida recount, this is al gore picking out which candidates he wants recounted. this is george w. this is baseball, not by babe ruth but by bunt.

this is tennis, it's back at the line, this is chicken crap. look, we either have a solid politics or we don't. if we really do have a problem of spending more than we're bringing in, we need to solve it by bringing up revenues as we reign in spending. if it's real, then we need to take it on in a real way, pulling up that 14% in taxes and pulling down that 25% in spending so they meet somewhere around 22%, which is about right giving the ageing population. it ain't complicated. if you want government to spend 22% of the economy, cough up the 22% in taxes to pay for it or stop talking and get out of the way. if the democrats want government to be larger, say so themselves, if the republicans want government to be down 14% of the economy, let them say so and tell us what programs they want to kill. i love politics because it's about big ideas, big reasons, about the kind of country you